Healthcare Plus Podcast

113_Emerging Healthcare Leaders: Recruiting, Supporting and Developing Young People who Want to Make A Difference

• Quint Studer and Dan Collard • Season 4 • Episode 113

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In this episode of the Healthcare Plus Podcast, Dan Collard welcomes Céu Cirne-Neves, MPA, FACHE.  With over 25 years’ experience as a healthcare executive, she now serves as a faculty member in the undergraduate and graduate health administration programs at Rutgers University.

They discuss insights Céu has gained from her unusual path, which led her from her first job in healthcare marketing to chief administrative officer and finally to academia. At Rutgers she’s observed major differences in today’s students vs. those of years past (for instance: they’re far more focused and specific on what they want, and very intentional about gaining the competencies and resources needed to achieve it).

Céu shares her recent idea for drawing undecided students into the Healthcare Administration major by building an exploratory course based on Quint Studer’s book The Calling: Why Healthcare is So Special. (“I feel healthcare is more than a job,” she says. “I’m trying to make it enticing for them to see the difference they can make through healthcare administration.”) 

Filled with practical takeaways, this episode will appeal to anyone seeking more understanding on what drives the next generation of Health Administration students, how to help them connect to their calling early, and how to develop and mentor them.


About Céu Cirne-Neves, MPA, FACHE

Céu Cirne-Neves, MPA, FACHE, is a healthcare executive with more than 25 years of experience in senior level positions and has made a successful leadership transition as full-time faculty at the Rutgers University EJ Bloustein School of Planning and Public Policy. At Bloustein, she teaches in the Master of Health Administration Program and serves as the coordinator for the undergraduate Health Administration Program. Furthermore, she is the faculty advisor for the undergraduate student organization, Future Healthcare Administrators, which signature event is the annual healthcare administration case competition. 

Cirne-Neves brings to the classroom a wealth of practical health administration experience resulting from years leading culture change, operational effectiveness, and patient safety and experience. She served as the CEO of Saint James Hospital, Cathedral Healthcare System, Newark, for 10 years, and most recently, in a variety of senior level roles including as Vice President of Ambulatory Services at Cooperman Barnabas Medical Center (CBMC), RWJBarnabas Health, Livingston.  

Throughout her career, Cirne-Neves has demonstrated how to convert an organization’s Mission, Vision, and Values into a leadership model that improves workforce engagement, organizational performance and results. She excels at strategic planning and implementation, operations management, and community benefit; and most of all, she shares the resolve that health administrators must nurture and contribute to the next generation of healthcare leaders.

Cirne-Neves is board certified in hospital administration and as a fellow of the American College of Healthcare Executives (ACHE); she is a past president of ACHE’s New Jersey chapter and serves as the ACHE Regent for New Jersey – Northern; as part of her annual Regent Awards Program, she has now introduced the Student Associate and Mid Careerist Regent Awards, elevating the significance of both levels of health administration. She has served on the Malcolm Baldrige National Quality Award Board of Examiners and under her leadership CBMC received the regional Baldrige Gold Award for Performance Excellence. 

She has enjoyed serving in the most senior roles at healthcare organizations and now promotes bridging healthcare organizations with healthcare education.

Nicole Webb Bodie:

Welcome to the Healthcare Plus Podcast hosted by Quint Studer and Dan Collard. I'm Nicole Webb, Bode Partner, Healthcare Plus Solutions Group. Thank you for joining us as we bring together leaders and change makers from across the healthcare industry. In each high impact segment, you'll hear about the latest challenges organizations are facing and learn how guests are rewiring solutions to drive real change. Plus, you'll walk away from each episode with practical tools, techniques and best practices to implement in your own role and in your organization. For more information on your host or to listen to recent episodes of the podcast, please visit www.healthcareplussg.com. Podcast Now I'm pleased to welcome today's host, Dan Collard, who will introduce you to our next guest.

Dan Collard:

Well, hey everybody and welcome back to another episode of the Healthcare plus podcast. Gosh, it's hard to believe that we're already this far into 2025 with so many wonderful guests and so many wonderful topics. And today is a little bit about a trip down memory lane and then walking memory lane all the way up today. Today I am joined by a dear friend, Sal Cern Nevs. And we met, gosh, ages ago, almost 13 years ago. And were just chatting offline before the podcast about still having the slides that we used that day when Sal and I were first together. Now we had met prior to that via phone back when it was just webex or regular phone calls, prior to Zoom and teams. And we got to spend a lot of really good time together in Livingston, New Jersey. But I don't want to spoil Sal's introduction. So first and foremost, sail, welcome to the Healthcare plus podcast. It's just so good to have you.

Ceu Cirne-Neves:

Oh my goodness, Dan, I am so pleased to be a guest at this podcast. I'm thinking that the subtitle is People who want to make a difference and people who want to share with others what's worked well. And I'm just so honored that you have invited me to be a part of that small cohort of people who are obviously making a difference. And yes, we go back a long way. I believe it was September 25, 2012, but who's looking at details? And I remember when I had an opportunity to receive from you a fire started lapel pin that was such a badge of honor and it really sort of set me in a new path to think through. What could I do beyond my role in operations? What was it that I could possibly contribute above and beyond? And it was really my appointment as the chair of the leadership Development Institute for that Livingston Medical Center. That kind of set me in a pathway of being broader in my opportunity to make that difference. And that brings me today where I am now a full time faculty at Rutgers University. The university offers two amazing programs, a Master in Health Administration and a Bachelor of Science in Health Administration. And I think I owe it all to that initial leadership Development Institute that really brought to me into focus the love of teaching and sort of passing it forward. So here we are.

Dan Collard:

That's awesome. Well, you've always embodied what that firestarter pin really illustrated. You've always embodied the whole notion of someone that just wanted to make a difference and indeed did make a difference. Let's roll the clock back and talk about your entry into healthcare and entry into healthcare leadership. Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about Sayl 25 years ago and walk us through the hospital side.

Ceu Cirne-Neves:

So it's interesting that I came into healthcare as a result of having a major in English journalism and working for the newspaper, the local newspaper, where this amazing hospital was, the community hospital. And I was always interested in what's happening at the hospital because it was such anchor institution for that community of immigrants, a community of industrious people came to really make a difference to their families, their careers, community. And so there were anchor organizations such as the newspaper, the churches, and obviously the hospital. So I started very humbly in public relations, marketing, fundraising, volunteer services, and eventually found myself to be honored with the president and CEO of the hospital, offer to be my mentor, encouraged me to go back to college, get my master's in public administration, and then invited me to all the C suite meetings to sort of show me what it would look like if I chose this career. That mentor eventually move on to another hospital, the General Hospital center at Passaic, and continue his mentorship where I then evolved into operations. The hospitals at the time were doing what were calling RE engineering. And RE engineering gave opportunity to people that came from different walks of life to sit at the table. And I was given the opportunity to manage the patient access component of the hospital center. And we did have a consultant. So I had the benefit of data, I had the benefit of know how, procedures, tools. I was well anchored. From there I went back to the original hospital where I was recruited for the corporate office. At the time, the hospital that I had been with, St. James Hospital had been then part of a larger organization called Cathedral Healthcare System. I was given the opportunity to do a marketing business development plan together with the president of the medical staff because the hospital was not doing as well as was a expected. And at the conclusion of my study, I presented my findings and I was given the invitation. Why don't you go and run the hospital? This is like a story from the movies. I was running the hospital's dinner dance because I was at the corporate office managing development, fundraising, volunteers, quality, all kinds of different functions. But one of my responsibilities was a dinner dance for this particular hospital. So I told my boss, I can't run the hospital. I'm running the dinner dance. He said, when is the dinner dance? I said, April 15th. He goes, all right, you take over the hospital April 16th. So I was given 90 days to shadow the president CEO at the corporate level, then became my mentor and I had the opportunity to attend meetings and to do all kinds of learning behind the scenes and stay the chief administrative officer of that hospital for 10 years. It was an amazing opportunity.

Dan Collard:

You know, it's along with your hospital operations background, you also have enjoyed a very deep relationship with the American College of Healthcare Executives. Ache I remember one time when you had me come up and speak at one of the chapters there in New Jersey is still. I think I probably have those slides somewhere there as well. But it's been fun to watch you with both your what I would call everyday operations, as well as an industry, trade association and industry organization that represents hospital executives. And yet now you've made a little bit of a pivot. You've transitioned into the world of academia. Just like you shared a while ago. I'm curious if you had to pick just a couple of things that might have led you down that path and as a result, maybe new perspectives that you had. How'd you make it from hospital operations into what you're doing today at Rutgers?

Ceu Cirne-Neves:

During the spirit of a little bit of flashback, I am currently a Regent for ACHE New Jersey. And being a member of ACHE contributed a great deal as to why I was able to become Chief Administrative Officer. I was all in attending all the conferences and the seminars, their professional development, joining with their mentorship, and really taking advantage of them in terms of what they offer to young professionals. In addition, I joined with the Baldrige Quality Performance Excellence Awards process and became one of their examiners, eventually achieving the rank of Senior Examiner. So as I was being introduced to best practices from the let's make a difference and let's be transformational, I was getting the tools and how to make it work. So the transition from that world to academia still in healthcare, to me it feels like Healthcare Management 2.0 because I didn't change my values. My values that I had as being part of this leadership development institute and being responsible for others to achieve results by giving them assistance, resources, tools. I was their support system. Coming to the teaching side of the business, I needed to immediately, for example, describe my teaching philosophy. And my teaching philosophy is anchored by my own leadership model that I developed along the way as a leader in healthcare management. So I create a sense of community in the classroom because I know that this is a team sport. I set very high expectations because in healthcare we need to have a high reliability mindset. And I offer value because I believe it's beyond having a lot of different words. You need to really focus on action and then make sure that you share those solutions, share the real world challenges, and have the students really have examples and scenarios that they can relate to. So I believe the transition was made easy from going from my leadership model, which I now teach my MHA students, to my teaching philosophy.

Dan Collard:

You know, it's sort of interesting, I had forgotten about your Baldrige involvement there. By the time folks hear this podcast, we will just be weeks away from the Quest Conference and my good friend and colleague Quint Studer is being honored this year as the 2025 recipient Baldrige Foundation Award for Leadership Excellence. And boy, talk about an example of life comes full circle. It's amazing. And you just said something that sort of is very intriguing. You talk about the real world scenario because in so many cases when students are still in school, that is their real world. It's not like there's a different world as they pursue a master's in healthcare administration or a bachelor's in healthcare administration. That's their real world. And yet we know there's a another real world waiting for them as they emerge with their degrees and come into the work. So now in your academic career, as opposed to the way we would get these folks out of their degree programs, into the hospitals, into the health systems, you're now a step or two before that, you're with students that will become those emerging leaders who what differences have you seen today? If you think back even 10, 15 years ago as a new MHA grad would join you in the organization fresh out of school today, when you see them in their world in either undergraduate or graduate courses in healthcare administration, what are some differences you're seeing? That's question number one. And then as a result, what brings you the most joy in that role? So let's talk about what you see with These students today maybe compared to a decade ago.

Ceu Cirne-Neves:

So what I see in these students is that they have so much more access than we did at their age. Even as I was considering and accepting invitations to have roles of increased responsibility, we back there were very much on our own. Not every organization offered leadership development institutes. Not every organization offered tuition reimbursement. We didn't talk about succession planning back then. So healthcare organizations may not have been working with their high performers. For example, they were afraid if they were gonna talk to you about recruiting you and asking you what a great job that you're doing, that you would then immediately ask for a raise. So were very on our own as compared to the students of today. I feel the students of today have more resources, they seek help, mentors much earlier in their careers than I did when I was their age. They seek out professional organizations, certainly American College of Healthcare Executives being my number one, as I am their region and as I am just so on there, so pleased with their welcoming of students. The students are members of what's called student associate rank. And as part of being a regent, one of my responsibilities is to visit universities and colleges in New Jersey that are offering healthcare administration as a major and want to be part of what we call the American College of Healthcare Executives Higher education network. And that's one of my responsibilities. So I get to meet with students who are fresh to the healthcare administration major and want to know from me, from the real world. But I'm very interested that they are already asking such excellent questions. So they're halfway there.

Dan Collard:

That's exactly where I was going to go next. It's sort of interesting. I'm curious, what are some of the most interesting questions you hear from them today? Because, you know, there's always something about he or she who asked the most questions when. And I'm curious, what are some of the questions you hear from them today that make you sometimes just sort of pause and say, wow, they're ahead of their time. Based on where we might have been in our schooling, I think they are.

Ceu Cirne-Neves:

Very much all in when it comes to performance improvement. And now can we as administrators be allied with the clinicians to have the clinicians have a better way to do their job? Because we as healthcare administrators are one or two steps removed from the point of the sphere. And the students are very understanding that in order for them to be of value, they need to bring about a process improvement mindset and tools. So, for example, the lean six sigma and black belt green belt, all the performance improvement tools that can be offered. Methods, other options, resources, leadership development. So the questions that students ask of me are related to what I think is imposter syndrome, that we as administrators are not as comfortable with thinking that we bring to the table the same value as a vice president of nursing or a director of nursing, respiratory therapist, case management, physician. And so my way of sort of teaching them, we all have a. A seat at the table. And the stronger you are in your methods and your performance improvement and your ability to ask the right questions of the clinicians. Do you have the tools to do your job? What can I do as administrator? To have your job, to make your job easier. That's our role to contribute. So I think they have way more of those types of questions than I did when I was their age.

Dan Collard:

So as you field those questions and as you get a sense of almost by way of the questions that they're asking, you sort of know the direction they might actually be heading in a career. What brings sale the most joy? What is it about hanging out with these young folks that are just so excited and they're just like sponges soaking up the work? What brings you the most joy today?

Ceu Cirne-Neves:

So my currently number one assignment is I'm the faculty instructor for the Masters of Health Administration Professional practicum. That means, for example, I have 28 students this semester. Each one of them is in the field in a host organization, assigned to a preceptor, working on a performance improvement opportunity, that capstone project which they then have to present to faculty and preceptors at the end. What brings me the most joy is when during their practicum, the student gets a job offer which really shows that the student is in the right field, the right frame of mind, contributing at the right level. And already, even as they are even not finished with at mha, they are already being recognized and being an asset to that organization. So I'm like a proud mom behind the scenes. I'm also very encouraged when students stay with me post their MHA graduation, when I remain their mentor. There's a young woman that is still meeting with me every six months for whom I served as a preceptor when I was at the Livingston Medical center and she was doing her master's at Rutgers and I was serving as a preceptor for her. She eventually got her full time job. She now is one of my speakers when I invite her to speak at my class. I teach more than one class in addition to the master's. I teach administrative issues and I love that she's still seeking me out as a mentor for her. So those are the kinds of things that bring me the most reward that the students see value in. What I have to say and what I have to offer.

Dan Collard:

I think it's still, to this day, one of the things I enjoy the most about going to the annual Congress is finding a way to sit down at a table with MHA residents or fellows and just let them ask their questions. And, you know, it never fails. There'll always be one or two that do stay connected. You know, we always offer our contact information. We always say, drop us a line if we can ever help. And just so happened that last Friday, I, I got a note from a young lady that was graduating from the University of Alabama, Birmingham a couple years back, and she just got a brand new role. And she.

Ceu Cirne-Neves:

There you go.

Dan Collard:

Reached out, reached out to ask a question about what do you know, what do you do in your first 90 days, 100 days there as well? Well, it's also a nice, I think it's a nice marriage of your world as an operator, which included mentorship and now some connections on the academic side. And the ache connection there is sort of that kindred spirit with folks. We are in the sort of the home stretch of a book that we are so excited about, really about how we ignite or activate the intergenerational dynamic, because it's something we're all dealing with. It's something that's not just healthcare, but in healthcare specifically, where you can have four generations in the administrative offices, four generations at the nurse's desk, four generations back in plant operations, et cetera. And it's just such an exciting work of a body of work that we're doing because it's not about stereotypes. It's not about one generation, you know, sort of pointing their finger at the other, but it's recognizing first and foremost how do generations come to be, how do their behaviors come to be. And so much of that comes from their formative years. And now you have sort of a bird's eye view into this newest generation. And so we've talked about access to information, we've talked about, you know, the world really is their oyster when it comes to information that's at their fingertips, that we would have had to have gone to the library and, you know, looked up all the citations on a body of work. But I'm curious as you think about how you just thought, if you think about when you first got that master's in public health, and even though it was not necessarily at the very beginning of your career, it was still something new for you. You. And it sort of would frame the way that you would think about coming into healthcare operations. And so as we work with these different generations, I'm always curious about the way people think. And so I'm curious, is there anything that stands out today in terms of comparing how you might have thought as you came into your role as a leader versus how the students think today? I want to get inside their brains a little bit. What do you observe as their professor, as their mentor, as their guide?

Ceu Cirne-Neves:

I believe they are more specific as to what they want out of their career, and they are more intentional when it comes for what, for example, what we call work life balance, what we call working hybrid. I don't believe that this was an option when were growing in our careers, especially. Even if some people had that option, I wouldn't take it because I would think less visibility means that you're not going to get the same opportunities. But these students are not looking at it that way. They're looking at their own lens and then purposefully changing the world to fit their lens, changing the opportunity. They are more specific. They tend to have their career plan in writing. Our students leave the MHA program at Rutgers with what we call their own personal, lifelong plan, where they have articulated where they want to be three years from now, five years from now, and what competencies and what resources are they going to need to be able to continue growing their careers? So that's different from back when were more catch as catch can.

Dan Collard:

You know, it's sort of funny because there are certain folks that would have again, preconceived stereotypes of this new generation. But if I, I take what I just heard from you, we might even say that they're actually wise beyond their years, given sort of them forging their own path.

Ceu Cirne-Neves:

I agree.

Dan Collard:

So in the academic world, we've, we've spent good time here today on the podcast, talking about where they are in their studies and where they're going and how they're sort of becoming masters of their own domain, forging their own path. But you're doing something incredibly interesting and I think also incredibly important because you had an idea, and often that's where all this starts. But you had an idea, as you think of the undergraduate sector of healthcare administration students, and you thought, why not look for folks that maybe haven't thought about healthcare? You know, we talk all day long about the nursing shortage or the physician shortage or shortages in allied health. And it just seems like we haven't really landed on what I would call a new solution that solves a lot of that. But you've sort of jumped out there and said, you know what, when it comes to healthcare leadership, I'm going to create a solution. And so what I'd like you to do is share. As we come into the home stretch of the podcast, I'd like you to share with our audience, first and foremost, the idea that you had based upon the undeclared sector of students. And then I'd like you to walk them through how you took a book like the Calling by my good friend and colleague Quint and are doing something with it in terms of designing coursework. The floor is all yours. Let's talk about your idea.

Ceu Cirne-Neves:

So one of my values is that I need to focus on action, and it's obviously a value that looks at results. What is it that you're trying to accomplish? And then goes back to what do I need to do to get there? So it's simple but very powerful. So when I was looking at my role as coordinator for the Health Administration Bachelor of Science program, and I'm looking at enrollment in our program as not being as robust as I would like it to because in my role I'm responsible to hire, manage, schedule, the adjunct faculty for the undergraduate Health Administration program. And there's such a groundswell of professionals who would love to have an opportunity to teach. So enrollment would be a great asset for the university for me personally to see it grow. So I came through research to realize that Rutgers University offers this amazing program called the BERN seminar, where first year students for one credit are given the opportunity to attend this one course 10 weeks in person to explore their potential career impressions that are career interests there. What do they think they would enjoy? There's not a lot of skin in the game in that it's not that expensive. It's only one credit and the student has a very. It's probably a smallish cohort. And I came to look at the list of what's being offered by the university and there was nothing there for health administration. And I'm thinking, oh, at the same time that I'm reading Quint's book, the Calling, I'm like, this is perfect. And the reason being that I feel healthcare is more than a job. I feel healthcare is a vocation. Quint is right. It is a calling. So I really built the course around this book. I have presented my proposal. I composed the syllabus sent it to the team that actually reviews all courses that are being offered for the first year. Rutgers students. We're talking about 4,000 students are eligible to attend any one of these seminars and they choose from the list. So I'm trying to make it enticing for them to see what a difference they can make through health administration, specifically when it comes to healthcare. Because yes, they can improve health and they can improve outcomes, but can also improve how the birth of a baby is such a great experience or how the experience of improving the transplant program services and the emergency department, which everyone really depends on. So make a long story short, my proposal has been accepted. So I will be teaching in the fall, starting September 3rd, for 10 weeks. I was given a great opportunity to teach at the Blaustein School, which is the school that hosts the health administration program in New Brunswick, New Jersey. Beautiful conference center, so that the students have a great experience with introduction to health administration as a career.

Dan Collard:

What a great idea. What a great idea to pull people into the industry versus either it just be by accident or they got to choose a major or whatever. When I first heard you talk about this, of course you were still in the grant writing stage and how wonderful it is that we actually get to announce. So if we have any podcast listeners whose kids are coming into Rutgers, you just heard the horse that they need to go and take there. But what a great idea to use a body of work. And you're sort of embodying, you know, we've always, when we think about Quint's work over the course of time. Quint has this unique ability to see around the corner of healthcare. There was a quote that everyone attributes to Wayne Gretzky, and it was actually Wayne's dad had Turretsky that said the quote. And that was, you gotta skate where the puck's going. And, and that's really kind of what you're doing with this course is you're not waiting for them to by default either be given a major or choose a major. You're. You're really perhaps uncovering their own calling as individual and sort of like, you know, those of us that, that fell into healthcare, those of us that didn't necessarily have a traditional healthcare trajectory, you're sort of pulling them into that trajectory. So first and foremost, thank you. I think it's such a great idea and I'm guessing there will be others that model after that. But you can always say you were the fire starter. You were the, were the first. You were the spark there. Salem.

Ceu Cirne-Neves:

I like it, I like it. Yes.

Dan Collard:

Well, listen, I have just so enjoyed being able to catch up. You know, when you have somebody that you every once in a while you get to trade notes on LinkedIn with, you get to watch their world things that they're doing on social media or in specific areas like LinkedIn. It's always just fun to be able to catch up. And when you were talking with our colleague Dottie a couple months ago, it just seemed so natural that we would get together and have this conversation on the podcast. So again, thank you for joining us.

Ceu Cirne-Neves:

Today and thank you so much for this great opportunity. I feel rewarded that my career is validated now as Healthcare 2.0. Being on a national podcast might inspire others to also sort of move on and pay it forward.

Dan Collard:

You just never know. And it's sort of that eternal pebble in the pond illustration that we use. Who would have guessed on September 25, 2012, almost 13 years ago that here we would be together talking about some of the cool things you're doing and helping students discover their own calling. So thank you. Thanks again. Always a pleasure. And parents, if you have any students that are going into Rutgers, reach out to Sail because she's got the class for your students to take. Have a great day. Thank you again and thanks for listening to another episode of the Healthcare Plus Podcast. We'll see you next time.

Nicole Webb Bodie:

If you would like free resources and access to our latest books, articles and industry insights, visit our website at healthcareplussg. Com. We hope you'll join us next time as we continue our journey to make healthcare better for caregivers, patients and communities.